Another school shooting

[Dante]

Laws don't have crime rates Still, those laws are there BECAUSE those states have high crime rates. Not the other way around.

Anyway, I've been long since convinced it's just something rotten in American society, not gun legislation, that makes school shootings so prevelant I know of 1 shooting in Germany and 1 in Canada. Rest = land of the free.

your "facts" are wrong. additionally, how many people are there in germany? now how many in the states? i won't bother typing the elementary statistics lesson.

 

[Sebastian]

your "facts" are wrong. additionally, how many people are there in germany? now how many in the states? i won't bother typing the elementary statistics lesson.

Lol, the ever-lasting discussion about guns in america.

Germany = 80 million -----> only one shooting
USA = 250 million -----> well, definitely more than 3

 

[Duke]

your "facts" are wrong. additionally, how many people are there in germany? now how many in the states? i won't bother typing the elementary statistics lesson.

I'm not even going to bother.

Maybe I am.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_massacre#Infamous_school_massacres


Twenty infamous school massacres. Half of them in the States. One could argue that the ones in Israel and Beslan don't even count, since it was done by terrorists with a political agenda, instead of a nut with a gun trying just trying to kill people.

Oh, and scroll down for fun. Look at all the "lesser" incidents. So many in the States it's not even funny.

So why don't you review your own elementary statistics, mr Dante. Or shoot up a school. Yankee style. Yeehaw!

 

[Duke]

And on the issue of gun legislation, my main point against gun legislation is this:

"15-year-old Vincent Leodoro stole a 10 mm handgun"

"14-year-old James Newman brought his father's revolver "

"Armed with his father's 9mm pistol, a 15-year-old boy "


And there are tons of them. Where do all these kids get those guns? The illegal circuit? Maybe one in four. I'll bet my left nut the most of these psycho kids took daddy's or uncle's weapons, left poorly guarded somewhere.

"Oh, but Duke, people should be responsible with weapons, dont you get that? lol!"

Sadly, people aren't. The whole notion of letting the general public have easy access to firearms is just funny in my eyes. The notion that this would actually make your country safer is ludicrous. But Americans are just obsessed with guns, the right to bear arms, the right to pack a nice fat gun. Maybe because the country is founded on violence. Colonists with Winchesters protecting themself against the evil redskins (/rasp), keep your forefathers' traditions alive, get yer own rifle now!

Until your kid steals it and kills 5 people on his school.

Let me ask you pro-gun people one simple question:

Why does America suffer so much from firearm incidents caused by "non-criminals" (most of the school shooting kids weren't known criminals)?

If it's not the easy gun legislation, then what is it? Is it American society?

 

[PuffnScruff]

not many kids are known criminals they start out their criminal record while they are kids. some just make a huge leap instead of starting out small. most if not all of the kids involved in the school shootings in this country were on medication (hint hint). including the kids at columbine. instead of looking at the easy way out and putting the blame on guns look into a little bit deeper and and you will find a deeper connections...mental illness, on/off medication, etc.

blaming guns and gun laws are is an easy target to focus the blame on.
even if my country does decide to ban all forms of guns that still leaves other countries that have access to guns. ponder that. and keep in mind the states in my country that have laws against guns that have a higher crime rates, the criminal knows they have an advantage and power over their victims. keep that in mind and apply it to a bigger picture when you ponder what i said.

 

[Sebastian]

not many kids are known criminals they start out their criminal record while they are kids. some just make a huge leap instead of starting out small. most if not all of the kids involved in the school shootings in this country were on medication (hint hint). including the kids at columbine. instead of looking at the easy way out and putting the blame on guns look into a little bit deeper and and you will find a deeper connections...mental illness, on/off medication, etc.

Irrelevant. I bet there are as many mentally ill kids in the US as anywhere else (well, circa).

Its hilarious. I mean, its more than obvious (you see SicC? I can do it.lol) that the easy access to guns is the main reason for all the shootings. Not the history of the US, not the higher rate of mentally ill kids, not the computers games, none of these things. No need to look deeper into something or make some far-fetched connections.

 

[PuffnScruff]

Irrelevant. I bet there are as many mentally ill kids in the US as anywhere else (well, circa).

Its hilarious. I mean, its more than obvious (you see SicC? I can do it.lol) that the easy access to guns is the main reason for all the shootings. Not the history of the US, not the higher rate of mentally ill kids, not the computers games, none of these things. No need to look deeper into something or make some far-fetched connections.

you think its far-fetched that almost all of the school shootings in the u.s. involved teens and kids who were on medication. many of them the same medication. wow. it is not irrelevant or funny at all.

 

[Dante]

Irrelevant. I bet there are as many mentally ill kids in the US as anywhere else (well, circa).

Its hilarious. I mean, its more than obvious (you see SicC? I can do it.lol) that the easy access to guns is the main reason for all the shootings. Not the history of the US, not the higher rate of mentally ill kids, not the computers games, none of these things. No need to look deeper into something or make some far-fetched connections.

i had typed an american history lesson for duke but deleted it, and now i wish i hadn't. in a nutshell, america gained its independence by the use of force against a few european countries. the right to bear arms was inserted into the constitution such that the common man has control of their cohesive destiny. in america there can be no tyrannical or authoritarian rule by those in power because at the most fundamental level, the people have arms and the power to rebel. this notion of checks and balances is what america was built upon and the reason for our status as a world leader (despite our short history relative to europe).

blaming guns and calling for their abolishment is naive and frankly foolish. they're here now, and if a law was passed tomorrow outlawing them, they'd be here tomorrow too. prohibition was an abismal failure because the people did not want it. likewise, such laws encourage criminal activities. if weapons were to be banned, consider who feels the impact... the law abiding citizen. the criminal element will always have access. additionally, would all guns be unilaterally banned? of course one would say yes to handguns, but what of shotguns? .22 target shooters? how about a bow and arrow? all three can be just as lethal as the next when used for malice.

puff is exactly on the money. the problem is that the high pace, ultra competitive standards set in place in modern american society cultivates feelings of insecurities and frusteration in those who fall behind the pace. elementary psychology dictates that frusteration leads to aggression.

the simple fact of the matter is that acts of extreme violence take place globally every day... the world media focuses on atypical acts like this recent one because it is interesting. meanwhile, a jihadist in iraq who kills 20 people gets 5 seconds of news.

the simple fact is that it's not guns, it's the lack of recognition and addressing of people's problems that kills people. until the social stigma of mental health and corresponding therapy is removed, violence will continue to erupt.

 

[Sebastian]

you think its far-fetched that almost all of the school shootings in the u.s. involved teens and kids who were on medication. many of them the same medication. wow. it is not irrelevant or funny at all.

Like i said. There are as many kids on medication in the US as in germany (just for example). So? Far more shootings over there than here.....explain please (without giving other reasons).

i had typed an american history lesson for duke but deleted it, and now i wish i hadn't. in a nutshell, america gained its independence by the use of force against a few european countries. the right to bear arms was inserted into the constitution such that the common man has control of their cohesive destiny. in america there can be no tyrannical or authoritarian rule by those in power because at the most fundamental level, the people have arms and the power to rebel. this notion of checks and balances is what america was built upon and the reason for our status as a world leader (despite our short history relative to europe).

Ok nice. But i wont pick out the certain aspects because it would lead the discussion into another direction.

blaming guns and calling for their abolishment is naive and frankly foolish. they're here now, and if a law was passed tomorrow outlawing them, they'd be here tomorrow too.

True.

puff is exactly on the money. the problem is that the high pace, ultra competitive standards set in place in modern american society cultivates feelings of insecurities and frusteration in those who fall behind the pace. elementary psychology dictates that frusteration leads to aggression.

Its not any different in Germany, France or wherever else.

the simple fact of the matter is that acts of extreme violence take place globally every day... the world media focuses on atypical acts like this recent one because it is interesting. meanwhile, a jihadist in iraq who kills 20 people gets 5 seconds of news.

We are talking (at least we WERE talking) about the comparison between two similar societies/countries (USA/Europe)

the simple fact is that it's not guns, it's the lack of recognition and addressing of people's problems that kills people. until the social stigma of mental health and corresponding therapy is removed, violence will continue to erupt.

Its not any different in Germany, France or wherever else.

 

[Preach]

the simple fact is that it's not guns, it's the lack of recognition and addressing of people's problems that kills people. until the social stigma of mental health and corresponding therapy is removed, violence will continue to erupt.

out of all of your post, i found this to be the most interesting part.

as for the subject under debate, i won't make an opinion because i don't really have one. i simply don't know enough to make up a schooled opinion, and then what's the point?

 

[Dante]

breal, i would counter by stating that america and europe are not as similar as you might think.

 

[Duke]

i had typed an american history lesson for duke but deleted it, and now i wish i hadn't. in a nutshell, america gained its independence by the use of force against a few european countries. the right to bear arms was inserted into the constitution such that the common man has control of their cohesive destiny. in america there can be no tyrannical or authoritarian rule by those in power because at the most fundamental level, the people have arms and the power to rebel. this notion of checks and balances is what america was built upon and the reason for our status as a world leader (despite our short history relative to europe).

Don't bother, I know the theoretical reason behind the right to bear arms. What those revolvers are going to do against your own military is a different matter entirely. Surely, if the right to bear arms is some form of failsafe design to make sure the country doesn't fall to opressors, it's quite outdated.

blaming guns and calling for their abolishment is naive and frankly foolish. they're here now, and if a law was passed tomorrow outlawing them, they'd be here tomorrow too. prohibition was an abismal failure because the people did not want it. likewise, such laws encourage criminal activities. if weapons were to be banned, consider who feels the impact... the law abiding citizen. the criminal element will always have access. additionally, would all guns be unilaterally banned? of course one would say yes to handguns, but what of shotguns? .22 target shooters? how about a bow and arrow? all three can be just as lethal as the next when used for malice.

It's not about banning something full stop. That's not possible. It's about making such weapons readily available to the general public.

puff is exactly on the money. the problem is that the high pace, ultra competitive standards set in place in modern american society cultivates feelings of insecurities and frusteration in those who fall behind the pace. elementary psychology dictates that frusteration leads to aggression.

So you're saying that there is a fundamental problem in American society that makes school shootings more prevelant there?

the simple fact of the matter is that acts of extreme violence take place globally every day... the world media focuses on atypical acts like this recent one because it is interesting. meanwhile, a jihadist in iraq who kills 20 people gets 5 seconds of news.

We expect a militant extremist to perform acts of violence. We don't expect it from children. That's why it's "more" news than any other random act of violence.

the simple fact is that it's not guns, it's the lack of recognition and addressing of people's problems that kills people. until the social stigma of mental health and corresponding therapy is removed, violence will continue to erupt.

Sounds very fancy, but in the end you're saying that we need to solve the problems of humankind and then violence will go away. Great analytical job, Dr X. Any more obvious truths you'd like to share?



In the end it's a two sided story. Fucked up individuals are practically everywhere. America has no patent on twisted kids. It's when you add twisted kids and easy access to firearms up, then you get problems. Sure, you can kill someone with a knife. Or a car. Or a flower pot. But that's hard. We don't see school massacres done by 14 year olds bashing 10 people to death with a computer monitor. When 14 year old Billy, who is small and fat and gets bullied every day, finally snaps, it makes a huge difference whether Billy has access to that Glock in dad's bedroom drawer or that he must make do with a kitchen knife.

The "emotional threshold" of killing with firearms is low. It's easier to pull a trigger than stab someone to bits up close and personal. And while this is only a small part of the matter, it all adds up. In America, we have problem children, with relative (compared to other parts of the Western world) easy access to firearms, which are an easy tool to kill someone. Much easier than other "lethal tools" (which can be anything).


Also, my question still hasn't been answered. If America's gun legislation isn't "too soft" and America isn't a sandbowl of psychoes waiting to explode, why did so many of the violent incidents at schools with firearms happen in the United States?

 

[Sebastian]

breal, i would counter by stating that america and europe are not as similar as you might think.

But...but, we are "The West"

 

[Dante]

It's not about banning something full stop. That's not possible. It's about making such weapons readily available to the general public.

can you not see the ridiculous futility in this sentiment?

 

[EDouble]

But...but, we are "The West"

Most Of Europe Is On The East Coast.

 

[Duke]

can you not see the ridiculous futility in this sentiment?

No, champion of simplification. Your initial statement suggested a ban on it wouldn't remove the objects from society. Of course it wouldn't. As much as I'd like to see drugs and alcohol obliterated totally from our society, it's impossible. Regulation is the key here. And although I admit I could've worded it a bit more clearly, I think you damn well know my point.

Way to ignore the rest of my post btw.

 

[Jokerman]

Ever wonder why there are no school shootings in Israel?

It's because the faculty and administration are armed -- and TRAINED -- on the deployment of firearms in defense of their students. Since they are no longer considered a "soft target," they have been much safer.

Hmmmmmm...Lessons Learned.

Even if it could be shown that the availability of guns contributes to school shootings and murders (which it hasn't), I believe that having a few thousand firearm murders a year in the US is worth it. Having a few dozen children die in school shootings in the US is worth it. You can't scare me into restricting firearms with save-the-children-from-being-murdered arguments. The number of civilians murdered by other citizens absolutely pales in comparison to the numbers that governments put up on the wall. One hundred seventy-four million disarmed civilians have been killed by governments in the last century. 174,000,000. That doesn't include soldiers or non-combatant deaths or "collateral damage" in wars.

By any metric you choose, the incidence of democide (killed by your government) is between one hundred to two hundred times greater than that of homicide.

Do the math.

US avg homicides a year 11,000 (justifiable homicides + murders)

174,000,000 genocides committed by UN member nations in the 20th century.

174,000,000 / 100 = 1,740,000 genocides a year.

1,740,000 / 11,000 = ~158

So it would take that evil "American gun culture" over 158 years to match 1 year of government sponsored killing done by UN member governments.

School shootings? Gangland shootings? Big deal. Find something else to scare me with, that boogeyman doesn't work no more. Even if you could prove that disarming the civilian populace 100% could absolutely prevent every single one of those deaths, it's not worth it. Period.

The answer to any and all gun-control proposals should be "What ethnic, cultural, or religious group do you wish to exterminate today?"

 

[Dante]

As much as I'd like to see drugs and alcohol obliterated totally from our society, it's impossible.

bit of a hypocrite, no?

 

[Duke]

Ever wonder why there are no school shootings in Israel?

It's because the faculty and administration are armed -- and TRAINED -- on the deployment of firearms in defense of their students. Since they are no longer considered a "soft target," they have been much safer.

Hmmmmmm...Lessons Learned.

Even if it could be shown that the availability of guns contributes to school shootings and murders (which it hasn't), I believe that having a few thousand firearm murders a year in the US is worth it. Having a few dozen children die in school shootings in the US is worth it. You can't scare me into restricting firearms with save-the-children-from-being-murdered arguments. The number of civilians murdered by other citizens absolutely pales in comparison to the numbers that governments put up on the wall. One hundred seventy-four million disarmed civilians have been killed by governments in the last century. 174,000,000. That doesn't include soldiers or non-combatant deaths or "collateral damage" in wars.

By any metric you choose, the incidence of democide (killed by your government) is between one hundred to two hundred times greater than that of homicide.

Do the math.

US avg homicides a year 11,000 (justifiable homicides + murders)

174,000,000 genocides committed by UN member nations in the 20th century.

174,000,000 / 100 = 1,740,000 genocides a year.

1,740,000 / 11,000 = ~158

So it would take that evil "American gun culture" over 158 years to match 1 year of government sponsored killing done by UN member governments.

School shootings? Gangland shootings? Big deal. Find something else to scare me with, that boogeyman doesn't work no more. Even if you could prove that disarming the civilian populace 100% could absolutely prevent every single one of those deaths, it's not worth it. Period.

The answer to any and all gun-control proposals should be "What ethnic, cultural, or religious group do you wish to exterminate today?"

That's hilarious logic :laugh: You think having a rifle in your cupboard would have saved you from being sent to one of Stalin's death camps? Prevent Kristallnacht by packing a Colt?

bit of a hypocrite, no?

Well, ideally, it'd solve a lot of problems if they didn't exist.

 

[Jokerman]

That's hilarious logic. You think having a rifle in your cupboard would have saved you from being sent to one of Stalin's death camps? Prevent Kristallnacht by packing a Colt?

No, I think an armed populace will prevent such a thing, which is why Kristallnacht was preceded by the confiscation of firearms from Jewish homes.

Let's see: The New York Times, Nov. 8, 1938

"Berlin Police Head Announces 'Disarming' of Jews"

"The Berlin Police President, Count Wolf Heinrich von Helldorf, announced that as a result of a police activity in the last few weeks the entire Jewish population of Berlin had been "disarmed" with the confiscation of 2,569 hand weapons, 1,702 firearms and 20,000 rounds of ammunition. Any Jews still found in possession of weapons without valid licenses are threatened with the severest punishment."

Kristallnacht took place on Nov 10th. Looks like Hitler understood something you can't even do with hindsight.

Then when the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto got their hands on a few guns, they held back the German army for a month. Israel understands its lessons.